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ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
The White Stuff: Whiting Wongs & Wonging Whites
hey're our neighbors, buddies, allies, enemies, clients, bosses, employees, lovers and spouses. Many of us have more daily contact with Whites than with other Asians. Consequently, we often feel we know them better than they can ever know us. Maybe that's at the heart of our frustration as Asian Americans. They are as ubiquitous and pervasive as the air we breath while to them it seems we are eternal curiosities, outsiders, exotics.
Bridging the gap?
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And so we sometimes find ourselves lashing out with nasty generalizations about the people we blame for all that seems wrong with American society and, more specifically, our place in it. They are ignorant, shallow, boorish, smelly, sneaky, treacherous, malicious, dumb, weird -- in short, all the labels we feel have been so unfairly slapped on us.
But even as we hurl such epithets we cannot forget the countless acts of kindness, warmth, generosity, friendship, passion and love that we have enjoyed from these very same people. As our anger and frustration subside, we recognize that our fates are inextricably intertwined, not merely in sharing a world, a nation, a society, an economy, a culture -- but often in sharing even our most intimate lives. One in five of today's Asian American marriages are to Whites. And contrary to the imbalance of the past, the ratio of new AM/WF marriages to new AF/WM marriages is steadily approaching unity.
So we naturally have a strong interest in decoding the other side of the equation. Understanding is a two-way street. Fortunately, there are Whites who have enough interest in us as individuals to share their perspectives on us and on their interactions with us. This page is for those who -- as corny as it may sound -- have chosen to serve as bridges.
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Discussions posted during the past year remain available for browsing.
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
(Updated
Wednesday, Jan 22, 2025, 06:38:55 AM)
ESL Teacher:
Sorry for this long rambling post. Too lazy & tired to be concise. =) I'm not convinced of long-term negative effects. Can you refer me to relevant literature? (and data which isn't about Latinos? I'm having ridiculous trouble finding language data by ethnicity for US-born Asians ...)
First, I think you perceive the number of US-born long-term LEP students to be larger than it really is because of self-selection in who you meet. All the students of yours who use only a foreign language at home speak limited English not because everyone has this same outcome, but because the ones who speak good English don't become your students.
Anyway, I'm looking particularly at Hao & Portes (Levy Economics Institute working paper #229). They examined a group of low SES 14/15 year olds in San Diego to determine bilingual ability. Of the American-born Asians, 90.3% spoke English "well" or "very well." The percentage of those who spoke an Asian language "well" or better is depressing, to say the least. Removing the Filipinos, who are the only group with widespread parental fluency in English, and the "Other Asians," we have left Vietnamese, Cambodians, Laotians, 80.4% of them still speak English "well" or better.
In otherwords, about 1/5 of US-born kids in a poor refugee population in which the older generation barely speaks English (judging from percentage of linguistically isolated households) still have trouble with English after about 9 years of American education. I doubt this effect can be any bigger, and it is likely much smaller, in middle-class households attending good schools, even if the child's exposure to English is limited prior to entering school. Obviously such exposure is beneficial. But I don't see that there needs to be a lifelong equal balance of both languages between the primary caretakers. This isn't Asia; outside the house, the kid will use English at some point - with neighbors, friends at daycare centers and other activities, with babysitters. Middle-class parents have time and connections with English-speaking neighbors and coworkers to arrange this kind of stuff for their kids. Refugee parents don't, which is probably a lot of the cause of that 1/5 who have long-term problems with English.
Across the board, only 5% of US born Asians use an Asian language with their friends (claims Tamar Jacoby in WSJ OpinionJournal, anyway; no research cite for that one). English learning is not a long-term problem. Asian language retention is. If we have any hopes of kids speaking good e.g. Chinese in the long term, using only Chinese and not permitting them to speak English at home once they enter school is pretty much the only way to prevent a slow switch to the kid responding in English and forgetting Chinese no matter what parents say or do.
T.H. Lien
Friday, June 28, 2002 at 00:04:32 (PDT)
T.H. Lien,
"Expect a big improvement in men's manners in China now that the coming generation has 114 males competing for every 100 females ... the women are in control of the game now and they're gonna reject rude men."
This is an example of the old confucian philosophy of yin-yang - opposite forces in a never-ending struggle, eventually in equilibrium (i.e. male vs. female).
In the previous generation, the men control all the power, dissing and abusing the women. The social standards favors males so heavily that families were killing baby girls by the millions.
In this upcoming generation, the girls who survive the infant mortality stage become women. Like the Chinese doctor said, "Males are freely chosen by females, and 10% [or whatever number] of them are not likely to find a wife. When they die, their bad genes are eliminated."
The women will choose men who provide equal rights for women. The chauvanistic men who once repressed women will be out of luck, and their bad genes are eliminated.
In the final generation after that, women will achieve equal rights with men. Even with a one-child policy, there is no need to kill/abort/alter female babies. Men and women are considered equal, the sex ratio is equal, and equilibrium of opposing forces (male vs. female) is achieved.
B. Lee
Thursday, June 27, 2002 at 19:46:53 (PDT)
TigerLily,
Who cares where they learn English in the USA. TV is usually a start. Put on the disney channel or cartoon network and they will pick up conversational english pretty quickly.
Once they enter grade school. They will be forced to learn English. I came here to the USA at age 4. Trust me, my english language skills are adequate enough.
Because there will be very few instance to even use Chinese in the USA. It's best to speak as much of it at home as possible. Even then without peers having a dialogue with your child, he will not be truly fluent. Like myself when I was entering college. I probably knew only 500 characters from various chinese schools I attended. And my accent was horrible. But in college the cute international female students from HK, ROC, and PRC got the better of me and I studied and refined my Chinese till I could no longer be distinquished from them.
What I'm saying is that even with Chinese being spoken at home. Your child will have a long way to go before they will be considered fluent by native FOB chinese. However, asking them everyday "Is your homework done?," and "Are you hungry?" will at least plant the seeds to becoming fluent and articulate in Chinese, if they choose. Instead of speaking like a sterotypical White guy in a HK release of Jacky Chan movie.
One of my favorite white guys line in a HK movie. Once Upon a China with Jet Li. "Who is this Wong Fay Hong!" It sounds horrible.
AC Dropout
Thursday, June 27, 2002 at 16:03:48 (PDT)
Red Red Seashell,
Fay Xiang...he's old. He went China mainland to develop his career and couldn't go back to Taiwan. Now with the new openness policy he came back. Most did the romantic leads in Soap Opera. Tall handsome dude.
Live in China or Taiwan for a year or two and your bf Chinese will improve even faster.
I'm fully bilingual in Mandarin and English. It is not easy to do growing up in the USA. I was sent back to ROC and PRC in summers of my college years to enter language programs to get my literacy up to read the Four Books and Five Classics. I had a lot of FOB friends of my age so that I spoke contemporary Chinese. I sang a lot of karoke with friend at KTV and watch a lot of Chinese soap opera to improve my reading and listen comprehension skills. I read whole libraries of Chinese translated Japanese manga. It is almost a lifestyle change you have to commit to in the USA to become fully fluent in Chinese in the USA.
AC Dropout
Thursday, June 27, 2002 at 15:41:33 (PDT)
maxdacat,
urbanised countries. Maybe on the south eastern coast. The rest of the country is national park with backpackers. And the new uber-dingo that eat you up alive.
Austrailia smart in a sense, it aligns it self with both USA and China for economics. I think it has a good future. But I will need to adopt a more pluralistic view if it to try and catch up the USA in importing human resources from abroad.
AC Dropout
Thursday, June 27, 2002 at 15:30:02 (PDT)
ESL teacher,
That's a load of bull. I didn't speak english at home and my english is a perfect coastal American accent.
That is an individual trait to try and acclimate an accent and may be reflective on the intelligence of that individual.
AC Dropout
Thursday, June 27, 2002 at 15:24:21 (PDT)
T.H. Lien
I teach ESL ( English s a second language.)
If a child is not spoken to in English in the home, and your expectation is that they can learn it in the school system without complication, nor accent - that is incorrect.
One parent must speak English while the other parent speaks the alternate language, or an equal balance of both languages must be used in the household. An occasional story read in English is insufficient.
I help people in just such a predicament quite often...they were born in the US but have an ungodly accent speaking English. I could have a job just assisting with this problem and do as well as I do in ESL, because these people wish they had learned proper English while in their homes!
ESL teacher
Wednesday, June 26, 2002 at 20:08:42 (PDT)
T.H.Lien,
Thanks for the advice. One other thing you forgot to mention is grandparents. If we did have kids, my b/f's parents would just LOVE to watch the kids and teach them Chinese, and bring them to Dim Sum, Buddhist temple, etc. I think that's a great way to carry on family traditions as well as keep the family close-knit across generations.
Lisa
Wednesday, June 26, 2002 at 09:23:32 (PDT)
Red Red Seashell:
Expect a big improvement in men's manners in China now that the coming generation has 114 males competing for every 100 females ... the women are in control of the game now and they're gonna reject rude men.
Mr. Lewis:
Hmm. I first learned Chinese from my grandparents too. Even though just about everything I know now comes from friends, there are still times where I bust out some words or phrases that make people think I'm Grandpa Farmer who just fell off the turnip truck. Hehe ...
T.H. Lien
Tuesday, June 25, 2002 at 14:48:34 (PDT)
Lisa:
Once your kid gets past around age 8, it doesn't matter what language you use in the home. Unless he has exposure to Chinese language outside the home, used by people his own age, your household turns bilingual, but not exactly in the way you'd want: parents talk Chinese, kid yells back in English.
Most "Chinese school" extracurricular programs are utterly worthless. (See my previous post). The only graduates I've met with a decent ability are those whose parents sent them back to China/Taiwan/HK/Malaysia every summer to stay with relatives. Then he'll make friends with whom he has no choice but to use Chinese. Which in the end is probably one of the few reliable solutions for maintaining bilingualism regardless of your kids' life in your own country. Of course that requires willing relatives and a ridiculous amount of money spent on plane tickets. But you could probably get the money by pulling the kid out of Chinese school and saving the tuition. Send your relatives some nice gifts with any leftover cash.
Some exposure to English at home prior to school-entering age is probably a good idea (by reading stories to him, for example). But it's hardly necessary to be the constant language of communication with one of the parents. Once a kid starts school, he picks up the language, accent and grammar of his friends. (Which is why, for example, kids of British immigrants speak American English and perceive their parents, not their friends, as having an accent). He'll get enough exposure to English by then that you don't need to use it any further at home. In the long run, English language ability is not a problem - virtually everyone who enters an English-speaking school or even a bilingual school from age 6, becomes fluent in English. Except those kids whose parents don't speak to them at all in the home, or those kids unfortunate enough to get stuck in the public schools' twisted version of bilingual education, which consists of 5 hours of daily instruction in the foreign language and 45 minutes of "This is a dog. The dog's name is Spot. What is Spot?" in English.
T.H. Lien
Tuesday, June 25, 2002 at 14:48:16 (PDT)
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