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ASIAMS.NET |
ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUES
The White Stuff: Whiting Wongs & Wonging Whites
hey're our neighbors, buddies, allies, enemies, clients, bosses, employees, lovers and spouses. Many of us have more daily contact with Whites than with other Asians. Consequently, we often feel we know them better than they can ever know us. Maybe that's at the heart of our frustration as Asian Americans. They are as ubiquitous and pervasive as the air we breath while to them it seems we are eternal curiosities, outsiders, exotics.
Bridging the gap?
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And so we sometimes find ourselves lashing out with nasty generalizations about the people we blame for all that seems wrong with American society and, more specifically, our place in it. They are ignorant, shallow, boorish, smelly, sneaky, treacherous, malicious, dumb, weird -- in short, all the labels we feel have been so unfairly slapped on us.
But even as we hurl such epithets we cannot forget the countless acts of kindness, warmth, generosity, friendship, passion and love that we have enjoyed from these very same people. As our anger and frustration subside, we recognize that our fates are inextricably intertwined, not merely in sharing a world, a nation, a society, an economy, a culture -- but often in sharing even our most intimate lives. One in five of today's Asian American marriages are to Whites. And contrary to the imbalance of the past, the ratio of new AM/WF marriages to new AF/WM marriages is steadily approaching unity.
So we naturally have a strong interest in decoding the other side of the equation. Understanding is a two-way street. Fortunately, there are Whites who have enough interest in us as individuals to share their perspectives on us and on their interactions with us. This page is for those who -- as corny as it may sound -- have chosen to serve as bridges.
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Discussions posted during the past year remain available for browsing.
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WHAT YOU SAY
[This page is closed to new input. --Ed.]
(Updated
Wednesday, Jan 22, 2025, 06:38:55 AM)
You never criticise someone's cooking to their face in front of everyone like that. Great googly moogly! Even though that dude was white, he had POOR MANNERS!
Random WM
Tuesday, June 11, 2002 at 06:09:02 (PDT)
Krasavitsa,
well i'm back in the Lisbon office after a long weekend spent down on the Portuguese seaside.
all up it hasn't been a bad place to work and play.....it's just that after Asia and some of the more cosmopolitan cities of the world Portugal can seem a bit dull (read white!)....food is very important to me and this is where Asian cultures (with the exception of the Philippines) really shine and i feel europe is overrated....that's why i can't wait to get to italy for some exciting flavours (i hope).
as for my work it is internal audit for an American IT company.....extremely dull but the trade-off is i get to travel around the world on the company account.....your law course sounds a little outside the square.... i know of plently on the corporate law-big firm treadmill
as for JLC - i remember vividly the bit where the white guy pours the soy sauce over the mum's "poor attempt" at cooking.....it made me cringe a little coz i think it encapsulates some of the cultural faux pas committed by us all.
maxdacat
Tuesday, June 11, 2002 at 02:48:05 (PDT)
krasavitsa
what did your russian bf think about japan's victory over russia. sounded like a whole bunch of 'em up there didn't take it too well.
kimchi
Tuesday, June 11, 2002 at 01:11:36 (PDT)
question:
P.S. Sorry, didn't mean for my post to get so dialectical, that's just me and my tendency to rant. Your questions are legitimate.
One of the biggest influences on Chinese culture was the teachings of Confucius, so you might be interested in reading up on his philosophy.
krasavitsa
Monday, June 10, 2002 at 23:32:50 (PDT)
question
To be honest, i'm not sure how much i could be of help to you, because i'm Asian Australian. My grandparents were from China and my parents were from Malaysia.
Culture is such a complex thing... Am i really in a position to say what Chinese culture is? Are my parents? Is our culture really Chinese, or can it only be described as Chinese-Malaysian-Australian?
Some diasporic Chinese who have never been to China are nonetheless 100% convinced that all their own values are representative of "Chinese values".
But the Chinese who grew up on the mainland seem so different in attitude from Chinese Malaysians, who seem different from the Chinese in Singapore and the Chinese in Australia and the Chinese in New York's Chinatown (hardly any of whom speak English!!!) and especially the Chinese in Indonesia, who have undergone forced assimilation.
Sometimes the values which are touted as being "Chinese" are really class values. I spent some time in Malaysia living with a big Chinese family from a rural (village) background, and they have a different way of thinking from my middle-class family in Australia, and definitely very different from the family in the Joy Luck Club. But Chinese everywhere seem to think that their own values represent the Chinese.
My family and some relatives were having this Malaysian dish called popiah (that you have to roll up like a felafel, it can be quite difficult), and my cousin's Chinese-Malaysian husband put down Hong Kong people generally for not being about to roll popiah, so i said "Why should they know? They're from Hong Kong, not Malaysia", and then, oddly, he said "because they're Chinese, and Chinese people eat popiah". I don't know, but that's the logic of some people.
Anyway, my point is that not all people who identify as Chinese will describe the experience of being Chinese in the same way.
You know that "Asian values" crap that some despotic leaders use as an excuse for their human rights abuses? Don't accept any of it.
No culture is uniform or static. There are even big differences within cultures, e.g. across class and generation divides, political and religious divides.
While my parents and relatives might think Chinese culture is this constant, unchanging monolith, meanwhile, many people in China are actually wanting to change.
Anyway, my point is that i don't know how i could tell you anything about your boyfriend. He and his family and friends are the only ones who could really help you.
Russians have told me all kinds of things about my boyfriend on the basis of his being Russian, but they turned out to be wrong :)
As for the face thing... If you asked my mother, she probably wouldn't use the word "face". She would explain her neo-Confucian beliefs about maintaining a good, orderly society. It is more important for people to get along smoothly with each other than to express themselves individualistically in such a way that threatens this smooth functioning. I don't think my parents could ever be made to "lose face" because for them, it is something dependent on their actions, and not on other people.
So if the mother in the Joy Luck Club were my mother, it would be the impolite guest who loses face, while my mother retains hers (because she has done nothing wrong.) So she wouldn't be upset at all. And my mother wouldn't look down on the guest, because she is very accepting and understanding of cultural differences. The central idea is avoiding conflict at all costs.
From what i've read, the Chinese in US seem a bit more uptight and defensive than the Chinese here in Oz.
Why don't you ask your boyfriend about his culture...?
Good luck...
krasavitsa
Monday, June 10, 2002 at 20:49:20 (PDT)
Krasavitsa,
Yes, I personally would never have been so bold as to pour soy sauce over my MIL's dish. I think the guy was not very skilled in manners no matter what race. Yet I did see an example of how things can be misunderstood due to cultural differences.
I have seen it in my own life, and many of my other friends, both Asian and white, so I do not think that it is only an isolated thing within my own experience.
I am used to being asked something directly, with the option of saying yes or no without my entire character being judged on my answer.
Instead, once when I was working on an order for a gallery and had just gotten my then 2 month old to sleep, my MIL came and brought her friends. I stopped what I was doing and she asked me if I wanted to go for tea in Maryland, which the place they wanted to go was a 2 hour drive there and 2 hour drive back. I politely declined , visited with them and they left and I went back to working.
Not more than 2 minutes passed when my MIL's friend came back to the door. She said "Your MIL wants you to drive us to Maryland." Here I am with a rush order, my hands covered with clay, and the baby asleep and she could not ask me directly in the first place, but had to have someone else to do it , to save face in case she thought I would decline.
So I had to drop everything with a smile on my face, wake my baby, pack his bottles and be "respectful".
When it was seen that there was not enough room for the babyseat and them and me, I was told to take her to her friends house who was a better skilled driver than her and that there was no room for me and the baby. It ruined my whole afternoon.
Needless to say, if she had just asked me in the first place, I would have said okay, even though I was busy and would have appreciated some advance notice. But it is common in my experiences that it is not polite or Confucian proper to come right out and ask or say something or be direct.
This is only one incident, and my Chinese girlfriends , some ABC, some not, also share stoiries with me about similar things and they give me advice . How they cannot say no ever, how they cannot speak frankly and direct, and how everything has alot of ceremony and rules , even asking a question.
I do usually do the same back to them now and say yes to their faces,and if I cannot or do not want to do something, then I have my husband make up an excuse. That is how I see many Asian women I know say "no". Indirectly. But with my Caucasian friends I do and can feel free to speak directly.
That is why I say there are some cultural differences, and learning all you can learn helps avoid misunderstandings.
Hannybunbun
Monday, June 10, 2002 at 13:11:53 (PDT)
To "question":
The Chinese-American community is really a diverse one in terms of how much traditional values they keep and how Americanized they are. For example, some CA families don't care about "saving face" (making yourself/your family look good at all costs) whereas others do. Recently I picked up a new book about AA communities (forgot the name) and was glad to learn that the author noted different waves of immigration in history and how that affects AA communities today. Some are already 5th generation immigrants while some just came last month; some come from Hong Kong where traditions from over 100 years are still kept while some come from northern China with more intellectual backgrounds and denounce some traditional practices (because they are superstitions); and so on. If you really want to know your BF's family, pick up a contemporary AA studies book; or tell me more about his family-when they immigrated to the states, where in China they came from, etc. (I pride myself as a semi-expert on Chinese American culture :) ).
I am a Chinese-American woman and my BF is white. His family and relatives are very understanding people and very nice to me. The only thing I can't stand if that once in a while they would use phrases like "your country" (meaning China). This really hurts me because I am an American and want to be recognized like an American. Once, they even mentioned that some cousin's friend was dating an Asian girl so maybe I would want to meet her. Little do they know that I don't make friends based on ethnicity. I make friends with white girls just the same, and I don't have to make friends with someone just because s/he is Asian! I guess I am hurt inside because they subconsciously don't treat me like an American. So if you wonder what your BF doesn't like, this could be one thing.
Also, I'd like to say that not all AA people resent interracial relationships. Take my parents for example. They never say anything against my dating white guys. In fact, they think white guys tend to have better manners than Chinese guys in China.
Best of luck!
Red Red Seashell
redshell00@yahoo.com
Monday, June 10, 2002 at 10:54:29 (PDT)
Hannybunbun,
Regarding that scene in the Joy Luck Club, to be honest, i don't think one has to be Asian to think what that guy did was rude. Was his character a stereotype?
If i imagine my or my parents' non-Asian friends (British, Hungarian, Russian, Greek) in the same situation regarding my mother's cooking... I just can't imagine them being that tactless. When they come over for dinner they're very polite.
Perhaps Americans are so exceedingly democratic (in culture, not just in politics) that you don't recognise generation differences like other cultures do? You don't automatically switch to a more formal way of behaving in the presence of, say, your friends' parents, do you? Please correct me if i'm wrong...! I know that it's not only my Asian friends who are more formal to my parents, but also my white friends.
I also think it was unusual that the Chinese mother in the Joy Luck Club showed visible offence. I always thought part of Chinese etiquette was to not show offence, to not create tension. If my mother thinks someone is rude, she just smiles, and they never know what she really thought of them. But they don't get invited again...
Rabbithunter:
At least i don't just write to complain. What's up your bum? A rabbit?
biaknabato:
Boginya... i'll think about it. My modesty prevents me from describing myself as the Goddess that i am. But feel free to worship me anyway. Animal sacrifices are optional.
krasavitsa
Monday, June 10, 2002 at 00:19:24 (PDT)
Krasavitsa,
I am dating a Chinese man, we have a great relationship. I want to know more about his culture and Asian culture in general to understand him better, and because I'm curious. I've learned a lot from reading posts on this website, but so many of them are so angry and bitter and some people resent Asians dating outside their race. I never knew there was so much resentment.
I was just kidding when I said I wished someone could explain it to me, I know that an entire culture and way of thought is far too complex to boil down into a few sentences. May I ask what country/ethnicity you are from? And what did you think of Hannybunbun's post about the idea of "saving face"?
Thanks.
question
Sunday, June 09, 2002 at 17:47:40 (PDT)
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